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 Socialist or Capitalist?

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Which?
Socialism
73%
 73% [ 8 ]
Capitalism
27%
 27% [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 11
 

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PostSubject: Socialist or Capitalist?   Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:33 pm

Would you rather be with a;
Marxist tolitarian socialist dictator.
Conservative War-mongering religious president.

NOTES:
Obviously anarchists would rather have anarchy..but thats not the poll question.



And could someone explain to me why alot of anarchists lean toward Socialists? Is it just because they both hate capitalism?
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:32 pm

capitalist warmongering religious president because I've been with one for 8 years already no surprises! Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:26 am

Marxist, totalitarian, socialist dictator. Dictatorship is out in the open (unlike when it is hidden behind words like "patriotism" and "freedom") and a revolution would be a lot easier considering the people would not be blinded by consumerism and they may be more openly oppressed.

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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:55 am

i'm saying marxist dictator (remember that in marxist "dictatorships", the country is also ruled by the politboro (so...group of dictators....is an oligarchy....just like in bourgeois "democracy" ), your "dictators" of "communist" countries were elected officials...they were just elected by the politboro lol. ), because their are two outcomes:

1) like kencat said, under dictators, people may be exploited directly, and, especially after lots of revolutionary propaganda in the first place, is more likely to create a new revolutionary opportunity

2) in the case of the benevolent dictator, you will see a surge in education, health, standard of life, etc...this is because the state is actually protecting the people like it was intended to in the first place lol....and although a more oppressive situation can create a sudden revolution, a more educated population will tend toward anarchy even more than those under a capitalist system....its like, they'll hear propaganda all the time of why the state is being so good, but with a full education, they'll know that it wasn't always like that, why take the chance, etc....more will become anarchists, and in the case of a more liberal dictator, you might see an allowance of a surge of grassroots movement....

that's just what i think anyway...
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:19 am

KenCat wrote:
Marxist, totalitarian, socialist dictator. Dictatorship is out in the open (unlike when it is hidden behind words like "patriotism" and "freedom") and a revolution would be a lot easier considering the people would not be blinded by consumerism and they may be more openly oppressed.

Your missing a big detail though.
If the socialist government finds out your trying to create a revolution their going to kill you.
Capitalism...not so much.

Just think, if we were under a socialist government right now and they found out what your doing they could kill you(Anarchist website). That just scares the shit out of me.
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:48 pm

Rename wrote:
KenCat wrote:
Marxist, totalitarian, socialist dictator. Dictatorship is out in the open (unlike when it is hidden behind words like "patriotism" and "freedom") and a revolution would be a lot easier considering the people would not be blinded by consumerism and they may be more openly oppressed.

Your missing a big detail though.
If the socialist government finds out your trying to create a revolution their going to kill you.
Capitalism...not so much.

Just think, if we were under a socialist government right now and they found out what your doing they could kill you(Anarchist website). That just scares the shit out of me.
good point

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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:40 pm

Rename wrote:
KenCat wrote:
Marxist, totalitarian, socialist dictator. Dictatorship is out in the open (unlike when it is hidden behind words like "patriotism" and "freedom") and a revolution would be a lot easier considering the people would not be blinded by consumerism and they may be more openly oppressed.

Your missing a big detail though.
If the socialist government finds out your trying to create a revolution their going to kill you.
Capitalism...not so much.

Just think, if we were under a socialist government right now and they found out what your doing they could kill you(Anarchist website). That just scares the shit out of me.

LOL

There is not ONE part in Marxism that says you have to kill those who may not agree with you 100% of the way. You were fed and accepted the capitalist propaganda that socialists = Stalin. Sweden is socialist and they gave shelter to the anarchists at the G8 protests..

And I beg to differ.. further.. Under our capitalist "democracy", protesters are silenced by either being put to jail or killed here as well.
Mumia Abu-Jamal,
Sherman Austin,
Huey P. Newton,
etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:27 pm

and let us never forget the haymarket massacre! D=<

lol, i told someone in my class that it was the anarchist equivalent of the alamo XD

and...sweden's the social democracy, no? its just a nicer version of capitalism, completely dependent on the EU's large amounts of accumulated capital...

its benefits are socialist, but its still got its problems, what with their economy as dictatorial as any other capitalist nation...this is just what i'm assuming, based on a vague concept of european economy lol

but yeah, socialist government's would be accepting of pretty much all IDEAS being taught....but what with it still being a state, it'll have that reflex action of suppressing those that do too much to harm it...
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:37 pm

solpacvoicis wrote:
and let us never forget the haymarket massacre! D=<

lol, i told someone in my class that it was the anarchist equivalent of the alamo XD

and...sweden's the social democracy, no? its just a nicer version of capitalism, completely dependent on the EU's large amounts of accumulated capital...

its benefits are socialist, but its still got its problems, what with their economy as dictatorial as any other capitalist nation...this is just what i'm assuming, based on a vague concept of european economy lol

but yeah, socialist government's would be accepting of pretty much all IDEAS being taught....but what with it still being a state, it'll have that reflex action of suppressing those that do too much to harm it...

Agreed, but no one wants a revolution waged against them. Another example would be Venezuela -- although socialist, those with anarchist ideas are not murdered. Those who try to put those ideas into action, are. However, this is no different than in a capitalist society.

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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:30 pm

KenCat wrote:
LOL

There is not ONE part in Marxism that says you have to kill those who may not agree with you 100% of the way. You were fed and accepted the capitalist propaganda that socialists = Stalin. Sweden is socialist and they gave shelter to the anarchists at the G8 protests..

And I beg to differ.. further.. Under our capitalist "democracy", protesters are silenced by either being put to jail or killed here as well.
Mumia Abu-Jamal,
Sherman Austin,
Huey P. Newton,
etc.

No socialists dont = Stalinists. Stalinism is even more authorian than what i was thinking of. Maoism (China etc) never worked and are dangerous. Every place socialism has been put in practice has failed and became a authorian death house!

China: Tiananmen(Probably spelt that wrong) - Protestors were shot and killed in streets if resisted martial law.
US Black Bloc 2007: Protestors are surrounded by police and broken up with only two men with minor bruises for attempting to break a store windows.
G8 protests: Leftists and other anti-capitalists throw rocks and sharp objects at police, than police run upto them and they run backward, anyone left is thrown to the back of the police line later to be imprisoned.
Another important detail: These people choose to revolt against the government. They choose to do this with the known risks of imprisonment.

It's kinda like you think that police shouldn't use aggression when aggression is upon them?
Usually if a protest gets violent, someone should be punished (jail) not just let them go to do it again?

And i may be wrong..but didn't Mumia and Huey kill a police officers? ...yeah that should explain my answer right there.
As for Sherman i have no idea who that is.
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:50 pm

Rename wrote:
KenCat wrote:
LOL

There is not ONE part in Marxism that says you have to kill those who may not agree with you 100% of the way. You were fed and accepted the capitalist propaganda that socialists = Stalin. Sweden is socialist and they gave shelter to the anarchists at the G8 protests..

And I beg to differ.. further.. Under our capitalist "democracy", protesters are silenced by either being put to jail or killed here as well.
Mumia Abu-Jamal,
Sherman Austin,
Huey P. Newton,
etc.

No socialists dont = Stalinists. Stalinism is even more authorian than what i was thinking of. Maoism (China etc) never worked and are dangerous. Every place socialism has been put in practice has failed and became a authorian death house!

China: Tiananmen(Probably spelt that wrong) - Protestors were shot and killed in streets if resisted martial law.
US Black Bloc 2007: Protestors are surrounded by police and broken up with only two men with minor bruises for attempting to break a store windows.
G8 protests: Leftists and other anti-capitalists throw rocks and sharp objects at police, than police run upto them and they run backward, anyone left is thrown to the back of the police line later to be imprisoned.
Another important detail: These people choose to revolt against the government. They choose to do this with the known risks of imprisonment.

It's kinda like you think that police shouldn't use aggression when aggression is upon them?
Usually if a protest gets violent, someone should be punished (jail) not just let them go to do it again?

And i may be wrong..but didn't Mumia and Huey kill a police officers? ...yeah that should explain my answer right there.
As for Sherman i have no idea who that is.
why are you so against protests lol... I should show you a vid where a woman held a flower to a policemen at a protest and they attacked her with bikes(if i can find the vid)...the elites aren't going to roll over and let you change what they've worked for years to keep....there has been huge PEACEFUL protests especially on the gulf and iraq wars which just get rolled under the rug...so if thats not working what's next? Just sit there?

the police aren't our friends if there helping the system that enslave us you can't "reform* capitalism you must destroy it. You see what they did to people like martin luther king? He was all for non violence peaceful protest and the government still killed him because HE WAS TRYING TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM...and you do realize most people throwing rocks and shit are just paid cointelpro working for government to turn peace rallies bad and give them a bad name..Look at the DNC/RNC rallies it was going peacefully till these cointelpro in ski masks(what peacerally participant would show up with ski masks give me a break obviously cointelpro) started causing trouble...

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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:59 pm

Killuminati wrote:
Rename wrote:
KenCat wrote:
LOL

There is not ONE part in Marxism that says you have to kill those who may not agree with you 100% of the way. You were fed and accepted the capitalist propaganda that socialists = Stalin. Sweden is socialist and they gave shelter to the anarchists at the G8 protests..

And I beg to differ.. further.. Under our capitalist "democracy", protesters are silenced by either being put to jail or killed here as well.
Mumia Abu-Jamal,
Sherman Austin,
Huey P. Newton,
etc.

No socialists dont = Stalinists. Stalinism is even more authorian than what i was thinking of. Maoism (China etc) never worked and are dangerous. Every place socialism has been put in practice has failed and became a authorian death house!

China: Tiananmen(Probably spelt that wrong) - Protestors were shot and killed in streets if resisted martial law.
US Black Bloc 2007: Protestors are surrounded by police and broken up with only two men with minor bruises for attempting to break a store windows.
G8 protests: Leftists and other anti-capitalists throw rocks and sharp objects at police, than police run upto them and they run backward, anyone left is thrown to the back of the police line later to be imprisoned.
Another important detail: These people choose to revolt against the government. They choose to do this with the known risks of imprisonment.

It's kinda like you think that police shouldn't use aggression when aggression is upon them?
Usually if a protest gets violent, someone should be punished (jail) not just let them go to do it again?

And i may be wrong..but didn't Mumia and Huey kill a police officers? ...yeah that should explain my answer right there.
As for Sherman i have no idea who that is.
why are you so against protests lol... I should show you a vid where a woman held a flower to a policemen at a protest and they attacked her with bikes(if i can find the vid)...the elites aren't going to roll over and let you change what they've worked for years to keep....there has been huge PEACEFUL protests especially on the gulf and iraq wars which just get rolled under the rug...so if thats not working what's next? Just sit there?

the police aren't our friends if there helping the system that enslave us you can't "reform* capitalism you must destroy it. You see what they did to people like martin luther king? He was all for non violence peaceful protest and the government still killed him because HE WAS TRYING TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM...and you do realize most people throwing rocks and shit are just paid cointelpro working for government to turn peace rallies bad and give them a bad name..Look at the DNC/RNC rallies it was going peacefully till these cointelpro in ski masks(what peacerally participant would show up with ski masks give me a break obviously cointelpro) started causing trouble...

I agree except for the part about COINTELPRO. The COINTELPRO agents are those who refuse to unmask themselves in the presence of real activists.. The story about all of them being agents is some Alex Jones shit. lol

Those throwing rocks ARE usually protesters, I'm not going to blame it on others. Usually, it happens after cops incite riot. If it happens it first, they have to be pretty pissed..

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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:12 pm

KenCat wrote:
Killuminati wrote:
Rename wrote:
KenCat wrote:
LOL

There is not ONE part in Marxism that says you have to kill those who may not agree with you 100% of the way. You were fed and accepted the capitalist propaganda that socialists = Stalin. Sweden is socialist and they gave shelter to the anarchists at the G8 protests..

And I beg to differ.. further.. Under our capitalist "democracy", protesters are silenced by either being put to jail or killed here as well.
Mumia Abu-Jamal,
Sherman Austin,
Huey P. Newton,
etc.

No socialists dont = Stalinists. Stalinism is even more authorian than what i was thinking of. Maoism (China etc) never worked and are dangerous. Every place socialism has been put in practice has failed and became a authorian death house!

China: Tiananmen(Probably spelt that wrong) - Protestors were shot and killed in streets if resisted martial law.
US Black Bloc 2007: Protestors are surrounded by police and broken up with only two men with minor bruises for attempting to break a store windows.
G8 protests: Leftists and other anti-capitalists throw rocks and sharp objects at police, than police run upto them and they run backward, anyone left is thrown to the back of the police line later to be imprisoned.
Another important detail: These people choose to revolt against the government. They choose to do this with the known risks of imprisonment.

It's kinda like you think that police shouldn't use aggression when aggression is upon them?
Usually if a protest gets violent, someone should be punished (jail) not just let them go to do it again?

And i may be wrong..but didn't Mumia and Huey kill a police officers? ...yeah that should explain my answer right there.
As for Sherman i have no idea who that is.
why are you so against protests lol... I should show you a vid where a woman held a flower to a policemen at a protest and they attacked her with bikes(if i can find the vid)...the elites aren't going to roll over and let you change what they've worked for years to keep....there has been huge PEACEFUL protests especially on the gulf and iraq wars which just get rolled under the rug...so if thats not working what's next? Just sit there?

the police aren't our friends if there helping the system that enslave us you can't "reform* capitalism you must destroy it. You see what they did to people like martin luther king? He was all for non violence peaceful protest and the government still killed him because HE WAS TRYING TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM...and you do realize most people throwing rocks and shit are just paid cointelpro working for government to turn peace rallies bad and give them a bad name..Look at the DNC/RNC rallies it was going peacefully till these cointelpro in ski masks(what peacerally participant would show up with ski masks give me a break obviously cointelpro) started causing trouble...

I agree except for the part about COINTELPRO. The COINTELPRO agents are those who refuse to unmask themselves in the presence of real activists.. The story about all of them being agents is some Alex Jones shit. lol

Those throwing rocks ARE usually protesters, I'm not going to blame it on others. Usually, it happens after cops incite riot. If it happens it first, they have to be pretty pissed..
I've seen vids of people saying they were cointelpros during protests in 1980s Alex Jones didn't even talk about the NWO then + real activists don't put ski masks over themselves and scream fuck you while running around...didn't the cointelpro destroy the Weatherman and make them look like a crazed group with no message that just wanted to destroy things...don't doubt the power of the elites

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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:41 pm

Killuminati wrote:
why are you so against protests lol... I should show you a vid where a woman held a flower to a policemen at a protest and they attacked her with bikes(if i can find the vid)...the elites aren't going to roll over and let you change what they've worked for years to keep....there has been huge PEACEFUL protests especially on the gulf and iraq wars which just get rolled under the rug...so if thats not working what's next? Just sit there?

the police aren't our friends if there helping the system that enslave us you can't "reform* capitalism you must destroy it. You see what they did to people like martin luther king? He was all for non violence peaceful protest and the government still killed him because HE WAS TRYING TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM...and you do realize most people throwing rocks and shit are just paid cointelpro working for government to turn peace rallies bad and give them a bad name..Look at the DNC/RNC rallies it was going peacefully till these cointelpro in ski masks(what peacerally participant would show up with ski masks give me a break obviously cointelpro) started causing trouble...

No, no, im not against protests, im against protests were people OR police act stupid and someone has to get hurt. Peaceful protests are OK, i beileve infiltrating political steps and stealing it myself. That probably sounds wrong, but at least no one has to get hurt.

Police are my friends. lol! And now your saying that government infiltrats protests just so the protests get bad just so they have to use more efforts to put it down? I never thought conspiracy theorists thought that much, but it is interesting when i first read that. (I still highly doubt it but oh well Razz)
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:42 pm

"didn't the cointelpro destroy the Weatherman and make them look like a crazed group with no message that just wanted to destroy things"
Yes, but from outside of them -- they used propaganda, similar to that which is used today against anarchists, against them. They used the corporate media at the time to convey the propaganda.

The ski masks and bandannas are worn by protesters to protect their identities from the authorities, because they could be singled out and thrown in jail just for protesting.
It the ski mask is not taken off when there are no cops around, THEN the person is a provocateur.

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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:52 pm

KenCat wrote:
"didn't the cointelpro destroy the Weatherman and make them look like a crazed group with no message that just wanted to destroy things"
Yes, but from outside of them -- they used propaganda, similar to that which is used today against anarchists, against them. They used the corporate media at the time to convey the propaganda.

The ski masks and bandannas are worn by protesters to protect their identities from the authorities, because they could be singled out and thrown in jail just for protesting.
It the ski mask is not taken off when there are no cops around, THEN the person is a provocateur.
and screamming fuck you and running around also demonstrates what again?

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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:17 pm

Killuminati wrote:
and screamming fuck you and running around also demonstrates what again?

Well...anarchism is kind of a style now-a-days, people at my school wear (A)'s all the time and have no idea what the hell it is, they just say fuck the government because they want to look like rebels...
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:27 pm

Rename wrote:
Killuminati wrote:
and screamming fuck you and running around also demonstrates what again?

Well...anarchism is kind of a style now-a-days, people at my school wear (A)'s all the time and have no idea what the hell it is, they just say fuck the government because they want to look like rebels...

Anarchism is not a style. The 'style' you depicted is minor rebellion to a parent/teacher with the (A) being used. Has nothing to do with Anarchism.

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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:02 pm

Killuminati wrote:
and screamming fuck you and running around also demonstrates what again?

well, its not just that, though i'm sure that that kind of screaming can...build up to something else lol, say, the burning of some corporate building, a symbol of capitalism, a symbol of government....

and from what i've seen in history, nothing has been accomplished without violence....
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:16 pm

solpacvoicis wrote:
Killuminati wrote:
and screamming fuck you and running around also demonstrates what again?

well, its not just that, though i'm sure that that kind of screaming can...build up to something else lol, say, the burning of some corporate building, a symbol of capitalism, a symbol of government....

and from what i've seen in history, nothing has been accomplished without violence....

I wouldn't say nothing, though violence has brought us a lot. Our independence, an ending to chattel slavery, etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:28 pm

like I said earlier we've had huge peaceful protests on gulf wars and iraq war I mean HUGE and what has that got us? nothing still in the same 18 billion debt war and people complain when you use violence? My tax money going to support killing people is this a joke?

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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:44 pm

KenCat wrote:
Anarchism is not a style. The 'style' you depicted is minor rebellion to a parent/teacher with the (A) being used. Has nothing to do with Anarchism.

Your telling me you haven't seen random people with (A)'s and ask them about anarchy and they say "wtf is that"? And its no rebellion to a teacher, they just like the clothes because it makes them look rebellious. I've seen like at least 8 people in our local mall were this a week. Of course Anarchism is not a style to you specifically, but in general alot of the items for it are.
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:19 pm

Rename wrote:
KenCat wrote:
Anarchism is not a style. The 'style' you depicted is minor rebellion to a parent/teacher with the (A) being used. Has nothing to do with Anarchism.

Your telling me you haven't seen random people with (A)'s and ask them about anarchy and they say "wtf is that"? And its no rebellion to a teacher, they just like the clothes because it makes them look rebellious. I've seen like at least 8 people in our local mall were this a week. Of course Anarchism is not a style to you specifically, but in general alot of the items for it are.
The (A) is a marketing ploy, Anarchism is not a style.



Killuminati wrote:
like I said earlier we've had huge peaceful protests on gulf wars and iraq war I mean HUGE and what has that got us? nothing still in the same 18 billion debt war and people complain when you use violence? My tax money going to support killing people is this a joke?
Exactly. Doing nothing/voting/encouraging the system is violence!

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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:24 pm

KenCat wrote:

The (A) is a marketing ploy, Anarchism is not a style.

I would imagine you would be worried about this. No one is going to take a real anarchist serious when they see other anarchists go around and just say "fuck everything" with a anarchist symbol
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist or Capitalist?   Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:37 pm

Rename wrote:
KenCat wrote:

The (A) is a marketing ploy, Anarchism is not a style.

I would imagine you would be worried about this. No one is going to take a real anarchist serious when they see other anarchists go around and just say "fuck everything" with a anarchist symbol
what can we do about that lol? we can't stop the marketers or these kids its a "cool" thing to do now it'll go away..its a fad

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