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Inkus2000
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:32 pm

mr_ska wrote:
America is not all its cracked up to be. the economy has shot to crap in no time, but the 'leaders' in the country pretend like its gonna be fine, but everyone sees right through it. part of my family is German, buti am a cultural mutt.im every thing under the sun, i just claim being German and English

yea Id hate to live in the US lol no offence
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:33 pm

mr_ska wrote:
America is not all its cracked up to be. the economy has shot to crap in no time, but the 'leaders' in the country pretend like its gonna be fine, but everyone sees right through it. part of my family is German, buti am a cultural mutt.im every thing under the sun, i just claim being German and English
Speaking of the economy... We've spent over $535,122,126,613 in Iraq DIRECTLY. That's fucking obscene.

And same -- I'm Italian, American, Panamanian, German, French, Native American, etc...



Inkus2000 wrote:
yea Id hate to live in the US lol no offence

stfu lmao =p
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:34 pm

that's not an entire living's worth of money :\
it's millions of times that ._.
and yeah im the same as Ken xD
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:35 pm

KenCat wrote:
mr_ska wrote:
America is not all its cracked up to be. the economy has shot to crap in no time, but the 'leaders' in the country pretend like its gonna be fine, but everyone sees right through it. part of my family is German, buti am a cultural mutt.im every thing under the sun, i just claim being German and English
Speaking of the economy... We've spent over $535,122,126,613 in Iraq DIRECTLY. That's fucking obscene.

And same -- I'm Italian, American, Panamanian, German, French, Native American, etc...



Inkus2000 wrote:
yea Id hate to live in the US lol no offence

stfu lmao =p


New jersey - alot of Italians and irish ?

I love Itallian food

theirs no such thing as Irish quisine - potatoes and cabbage lol
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:39 pm

so is Social Anarchism abt ultimately being actually free?
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:50 pm

mr_ska wrote:
so is Social Anarchism abt ultimately being actually free?
It's about ultimately being free while helping others (as being ultimately helped), so yes. :]





Inkus2000 wrote:
New jersey - alot of Italians and irish ? I love Itallian food.. theirs no such thing as Irish quisine - potatoes and cabbage lol
Oh yeah, I'm Irish too... And yes, in NY and NJ there are a lot of Italians and Irish (as well as MANY cultures). New Jersey, New York and California are the most culturally diverse states I'd say.
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:02 am

yea, like whats his name asked, how would we deal with crimes?
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:04 am

mr_ska wrote:
yea, like whats his name asked, how would we deal with crimes?

Although there would be no law to break, we'd put people that, let's say, killed others in a jail.
These jails would not be overrun with people for two reasons:
1) There would be less 'crime' in an Anarchist society because a lot of people would be getting would they'd like.
2) The jails would not be run for profit (like they are in the US). When they're run for profit, the jail owners get as much people in them as possible (even if they're innocent).
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:08 am

okay. now what abt foreign imports, such as oil?
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:08 am

i believe I asked about that. You can call be 'cow', and abbreviation of 'dawowcow', or you can call me Gian, my real name :]
I believe what they would do is that the police would handle the worst accordingly... lock 'em up and all that :]
but nothing drastic.
They say they have a horizontally structured power grid thing...
it's like

____[a]____[b]____[c]____[d]_____
a=transport system
b=car factory
c=police station
d=car repair shop

etc. No Hierarchy.
But what I basically thought of it as was this:


____[a]____[b]____[c]____[d]____
______________[e]_____________

e=criminals.
They are below the rest.



But this is merely my opinion, not anarchism itself.

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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:16 am

dawowcow wrote:
i believe I asked about that. You can call be 'cow', and abbreviation of 'dawowcow', or you can call me Gian, my real name :]
I believe what they would do is that the police would handle the worst accordingly... lock 'em up and all that :]
but nothing drastic.
They say they have a horizontally structured power grid thing...
it's like

____[a]____[b]____[c]____[d]_____
a=transport system
b=car factory
c=police station
d=car repair shop

etc. No Hierarchy.
But what I basically thought of it as was this:


____[a]____[b]____[c]____[d]____
______________[e]_____________

e=criminals.
They are below the rest.

But this is merely my opinion, not anarchism itself.

VERY GOOD DIAGRAM! This represents the horizontal structure of organization -- no one has more power, and murderers have less.

About foreign imports like oil... Well, about oil: An anarchist society would look to other technologies. Check out this topic here: http://anarchist-org.forum-gratuiti.net/anarcho-environmentalism-f8/solar-power-cars-t25.htm - check out the specs and the beauty of the car I posted... NO OIL USED TO FUEL!

About other foreign imports (because there IS a foreign economy): we'd supply as much as possible for ourselfs and the things we couldn't possibly get from another Anarchist society would have to be traded for goods that we have (and they don't).
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:30 am

KenCat wrote:
dawowcow wrote:
i believe I asked about that. You can call be 'cow', and abbreviation of 'dawowcow', or you can call me Gian, my real name :]
I believe what they would do is that the police would handle the worst accordingly... lock 'em up and all that :]
but nothing drastic.
They say they have a horizontally structured power grid thing...
it's like

____[a]____[b]____[c]____[d]_____
a=transport system
b=car factory
c=police station
d=car repair shop

etc. No Hierarchy.
But what I basically thought of it as was this:


____[a]____[b]____[c]____[d]____
______________[e]_____________

e=criminals.
They are below the rest.

But this is merely my opinion, not anarchism itself.

VERY GOOD DIAGRAM! This represents the horizontal structure of organization -- no one has more power, and murderers have less.

About foreign imports like oil... Well, about oil: An anarchist society would look to other technologies. Check out this topic here: http://anarchist-org.forum-gratuiti.net/anarcho-environmentalism-f8/solar-power-cars-t25.htm - check out the specs and the beauty of the car I posted... NO OIL USED TO FUEL!

About other foreign imports (because there IS a foreign economy): we'd supply as much as possible for ourselfs and the things we couldn't possibly get from another Anarchist society would have to be traded for goods that we have (and they don't).

Thanks, I needed to visualize it somehow, so that's how I made it.
I may make one in photoshop sooner or later so that people can visualize it better. Than I can post it here :]

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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:35 am

When you do, make one for Capitalism so people can compare. :]
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:49 am

That's huge frickin contrast right there xD

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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:40 pm

First i'd like to say that anarchy is the theory, anarchism is anarchy in action, or in actuality. So anarchism is a society that has completely done away with coercive heirarchy and the state. People are free to do whatever it is they want, and authority (coercive) is abolished so there's no fear of having to do what others want.

dawowcow wrote:

____[a]____[b]____[c]____[d]_____
a=transport system
b=car factory
c=police station
d=car repair shop

etc. No Hierarchy.
But what I basically thought of it as was this:


____[a]____[b]____[c]____[d]____
______________[e]_____________

e=criminals.
They are below the rest.

But you just started to create heirarchy again. Why is it any more justified to have a little heirarchy than a large amount? Are you the one to decide how much heirarchy is allowable? Most criminals are just people who have been unlucky enough to be born into a bad situation. The other criminals are mostly people who just made mistakes. But doesn't everyone? So why should they be treated any differently. Understanding and forgiveness is better than punishment and shame when dealing with people.

And do you really see police in an anarchist society? I have no intention of reinstating any coercive bourgeois institutions. If you have cops you'll need prisons, and you'll need judges. And what crimes would people be tried for? Who would decide what laws there were to follow? Do you kind of see what this all is leading to?

And besides, if the police have no authority over the common folk, who's gonna be arrested? You'd have to use violence, or at least the threat of, to control them, which would lead to another monopoly on violence, and more coercive institutions to keep people in line.

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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:52 pm

Anarchist.Dagger wrote:
First i'd like to say that anarchy is the theory, anarchism is anarchy in action, or in actuality. So anarchism is a society that has completely done away with coercive heirarchy and the state. People are free to do whatever it is they want, and authority (coercive) is abolished so there's no fear of having to do what others want.

dawowcow wrote:

____[a]____[b]____[c]____[d]_____
a=transport system
b=car factory
c=police station
d=car repair shop

etc. No Hierarchy.
But what I basically thought of it as was this:


____[a]____[b]____[c]____[d]____
______________[e]_____________

e=criminals.
They are below the rest.

But you just started to create heirarchy again. Why is it any more justified to have a little heirarchy than a large amount? Are you the one to decide how much heirarchy is allowable? Most criminals are just people who have been unlucky enough to be born into a bad situation. The other criminals are mostly people who just made mistakes. But doesn't everyone? So why should they be treated any differently. Understanding and forgiveness is better than punishment and shame when dealing with people.

And do you really see police in an anarchist society? I have no intention of reinstating any coercive bourgeois institutions. If you have cops you'll need prisons, and you'll need judges. And what crimes would people be tried for? Who would decide what laws there were to follow? Do you kind of see what this all is leading to?

And besides, if the police have no authority over the common folk, who's gonna be arrested? You'd have to use violence, or at least the threat of, to control them, which would lead to another monopoly on violence, and more coercive institutions to keep people in line.


Hierarchy is a pyramid of power, or a ladder as some say.
The idea of my diagram was to instate that criminals basically would have negative or no power, when everyone else who has lead good lives and helped the community, will have the same amount of power as everyone else except these criminals.
You say that we need forgiveness and understanding. Would you understand why someone raped and/or strangled a 6 year old girl?
How about if they murdered your children, or someone close and you loved very much? Would you forgive them? Would you understand why they did this? Most people don't, and that is why there would be police and jail. If you can't see police in a anarchist society, then you are picturing anarchism as chaos, no the peaceful theory and habitat that it should be. The police are corrupt in some systems, and that is why they are disrespected in some cases.
Without the hierarchic power of the police system, none will have power over the other, but they will have a job and they will do that job just as everyone else does theirs.
But you are right that the police do not have authority over common folk. They just arrest and jail those who are criminals. Common folk are above those who commit crime, in a moral, ethical, and spiritual aspect.

I am not the maker or the theorist of anarchy, so I can not answer many of these questions, bu I can face you in the right direction. Let's not think laws are set, but they are basic morale standards.

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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:33 pm

Anarchist.Dagger wrote:
But you just started to create heirarchy again. Why is it any more justified to have a little heirarchy than a large amount? Are you the one to decide how much heirarchy is allowable? Most criminals are just people who have been unlucky enough to be born into a bad situation. The other criminals are mostly people who just made mistakes. But doesn't everyone? So why should they be treated any differently. Understanding and forgiveness is better than punishment and shame when dealing with people.

And do you really see police in an anarchist society? I have no intention of reinstating any coercive bourgeois institutions. If you have cops you'll need prisons, and you'll need judges. And what crimes would people be tried for? Who would decide what laws there were to follow? Do you kind of see what this all is leading to?

And besides, if the police have no authority over the common folk, who's gonna be arrested? You'd have to use violence, or at least the threat of, to control them, which would lead to another monopoly on violence, and more coercive institutions to keep people in line.


Very true -- and in an Anarchist society, we would aim to create an atmosphere were nobody would have to commit 'crimes' in the first place.
For example, someone may want to steal. In an Anarchist society, supplies and goods would be freely given to someone.




And Gian, the murderers would be below others in a moral standard, but there still wouldn't be any hierarchy.

"Let's not think laws are set, but they are basic morale standards."
Exactly.
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:43 pm

KenCat wrote:
Anarchist.Dagger wrote:
But you just started to create heirarchy again. Why is it any more justified to have a little heirarchy than a large amount? Are you the one to decide how much heirarchy is allowable? Most criminals are just people who have been unlucky enough to be born into a bad situation. The other criminals are mostly people who just made mistakes. But doesn't everyone? So why should they be treated any differently. Understanding and forgiveness is better than punishment and shame when dealing with people.

And do you really see police in an anarchist society? I have no intention of reinstating any coercive bourgeois institutions. If you have cops you'll need prisons, and you'll need judges. And what crimes would people be tried for? Who would decide what laws there were to follow? Do you kind of see what this all is leading to?

And besides, if the police have no authority over the common folk, who's gonna be arrested? You'd have to use violence, or at least the threat of, to control them, which would lead to another monopoly on violence, and more coercive institutions to keep people in line.


Very true -- and in an Anarchist society, we would aim to create an atmosphere were nobody would have to commit 'crimes' in the first place.
For example, someone may want to steal. In an Anarchist society, supplies and goods would be freely given to someone.




And Gian, the murderers would be below others in a moral standard, but there still wouldn't be any hierarchy.

"Let's not think laws are set, but they are basic morale standards."
Exactly.

So with criminals, would there be rehabilitation centers instead of prisons? I'm more toward understanding and rehabilitating than just locking them up. What do you think?
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:50 pm

InsurgenteCujo wrote:
So with criminals, would there be rehabilitation centers instead of prisons? I'm more toward understanding and rehabilitating than just locking them up. What do you think?

Yes, and because people would feel more free, many would voluntarily sign in.
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:05 pm

KenCat wrote:
InsurgenteCujo wrote:
So with criminals, would there be rehabilitation centers instead of prisons? I'm more toward understanding and rehabilitating than just locking them up. What do you think?

Yes, and because people would feel more free, many would voluntarily sign in.

well that seems like a really good idea Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:06 pm

dawowcow wrote:
Hierarchy is a pyramid of power, or a ladder as some say.
The idea of my diagram was to instate that criminals basically would have negative or no power, when everyone else who has lead good lives and helped the community, will have the same amount of power as everyone else except these criminals.

This seems to imply that this status of "criminal" would be permanent. How do you actually see this system working? Like america's system? Or what?

Quote :
You say that we need forgiveness and understanding. Would you understand why someone raped and/or strangled a 6 year old girl?

Maybe not personally, because i am bound by my beliefs, but retribution isn't going to fix that. Look at recidivism rates in the US. Obviously punishment is not sufficient to maintain peace. And i would first treat this as what it is, a guy with a mental problem.

Quote :
How about if they murdered your children, or someone close and you loved very much?
Would you forgive them? Would you understand why they did this?

Again, probably not. But what can we do to this criminal to make everything better? Will i feel better seeing him go to jail, or to his grave? Has that ever really worked?

Quote :
Most people don't, and that is why there would be police and jail. If you can't see police in a anarchist society, then you are picturing anarchism as chaos, no the peaceful theory and habitat that it should be.

Again, anarchy is the theory.

But there can't be peace as long as there is authority, and you would willingly instate an authoritarian, bourgeois institution. You really can't see how having a violent police force would contradict your so called 'peace'?

Quote :
The police are corrupt in some systems, and that is why they are disrespected in some cases.

No, the police as an institutuion is always corrupt. Some police officers are corrupt sometimes (or all the time, but that doesn't matter), but the institution can be nothing but violent and authoritarian. Just because you say they have no authority doesn't mean they really don't have authority. If i'm given the ability to arrest, i have authority.

Quote :
Without the hierarchic power of the police system, none will have power over the other, but they will have a job and they will do that job just as everyone else does theirs.

And some jobs have authority, like cops, prosecutors, judges; all those things you would make use of.

Quote :
But you are right that the police do not have authority over common folk. They just arrest and jail those who are criminals. Common folk are above those who commit crime, in a moral, ethical, and spiritual aspect.

Criminals are common folk. Usually they have just made a mistake.

Quote :
I am not the maker or the theorist of anarchy, so I can not answer many of these questions, bu I can face you in the right direction. Let's not think laws are set, but they are basic morale standards.

No, i guarentee you there is law set at this point. If you have cops, judges, and prisons, there's law. Otherwise there is no need for the cops, which means there is no need for the judges or the prisons.

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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:15 pm

KenCat wrote:

*Some may say that opposing hierarchy would lead to Chaos. However, this is not true. We still organize, but in horizontal organization, instead of hierarchal -- this way, all will be equal.

to add to your point, a lot of people talk about chaos and mean that people would basically fight over things. but this wouldnt be anarchy would it? because when a person wins a fist fight, that person is an opressor.
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:19 pm

Anarchist.Dagger wrote:
dawowcow wrote:
Hierarchy is a pyramid of power, or a ladder as some say.
The idea of my diagram was to instate that criminals basically would have negative or no power, when everyone else who has lead good lives and helped the community, will have the same amount of power as everyone else except these criminals.

This seems to imply that this status of "criminal" would be permanent. How do you actually see this system working? Like america's system? Or what?

Quote :
You say that we need forgiveness and understanding. Would you understand why someone raped and/or strangled a 6 year old girl?

Maybe not personally, because i am bound by my beliefs, but retribution isn't going to fix that. Look at recidivism rates in the US. Obviously punishment is not sufficient to maintain peace. And i would first treat this as what it is, a guy with a mental problem.

Quote :
How about if they murdered your children, or someone close and you loved very much?
Would you forgive them? Would you understand why they did this?

Again, probably not. But what can we do to this criminal to make everything better? Will i feel better seeing him go to jail, or to his grave? Has that ever really worked?

Quote :
Most people don't, and that is why there would be police and jail. If you can't see police in a anarchist society, then you are picturing anarchism as chaos, no the peaceful theory and habitat that it should be.

Again, anarchy is the theory.

But there can't be peace as long as there is authority, and you would willingly instate an authoritarian, bourgeois institution. You really can't see how having a violent police force would contradict your so called 'peace'?

Quote :
The police are corrupt in some systems, and that is why they are disrespected in some cases.

No, the police as an institutuion is always corrupt. Some police officers are corrupt sometimes (or all the time, but that doesn't matter), but the institution can be nothing but violent and authoritarian. Just because you say they have no authority doesn't mean they really don't have authority. If i'm given the ability to arrest, i have authority.

Quote :
Without the hierarchic power of the police system, none will have power over the other, but they will have a job and they will do that job just as everyone else does theirs.

And some jobs have authority, like cops, prosecutors, judges; all those things you would make use of.

Quote :
But you are right that the police do not have authority over common folk. They just arrest and jail those who are criminals. Common folk are above those who commit crime, in a moral, ethical, and spiritual aspect.

Criminals are common folk. Usually they have just made a mistake.

Quote :
I am not the maker or the theorist of anarchy, so I can not answer many of these questions, bu I can face you in the right direction. Let's not think laws are set, but they are basic morale standards.

No, i guarentee you there is law set at this point. If you have cops, judges, and prisons, there's law. Otherwise there is no need for the cops, which means there is no need for the judges or the prisons.


Very, very good points... I think we should have correctional organizations that people can willingly go to or where family members can bring other family members. A lot of criminals are simply responding to situations but in a bad manner because of their mental state.

Police officers as we know them now would definitely NOT be a part an Anarchist societ.
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:36 pm

i was doing some research on schizophrenia a long time ago, and i came across a statistic, which basically said that in first world countries, people take a lot longer to recover from a psychotic breakdown than in a third world country. this is because in third world countries, people tend to have more of a social life and connectedness to nature. they have a greater input of ideas, and therefore, they are forced to go back to reality.
so i estimate that in an anarchist society, if it is functioning at its best, there would be a lot less criminals.
also, look at america and the whole deal with school shootings. its all because people have an alienated lifestyle. and its not just capitalism as a system, its the whole mentality that goes along with capitalism.

and if you have a criminal, wouldnt you rather make him go through some kind of rehabilitation? after all, society would function as a sort of rehabilitation center in itself, since people would be more open minded by nature. people would naturally have a greater understanding of things due to less alienation and more spontanious thinking and behaviour.
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PostSubject: Re: What is anarchism?   Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:43 pm

god0fmusic wrote:
i was doing some research on schizophrenia a long time ago, and i came across a statistic, which basically said that in first world countries, people take a lot longer to recover from a psychotic breakdown than in a third world country. this is because in third world countries, people tend to have more of a social life and connectedness to nature. they have a greater input of ideas, and therefore, they are forced to go back to reality.
so i estimate that in an anarchist society, if it is functioning at its best, there would be a lot less criminals.
also, look at america and the whole deal with school shootings. its all because people have an alienated lifestyle. and its not just capitalism as a system, its the whole mentality that goes along with capitalism.

and if you have a criminal, wouldnt you rather make him go through some kind of rehabilitation? after all, society would function as a sort of rehabilitation center in itself, since people would be more open minded by nature. people would naturally have a greater understanding of things due to less alienation and more spontanious thinking and behaviour.

Agreed 100%. I have never heard that schizophrenia statistic -- it's amazing. And yes, I'd rather the criminals go through some sort of rehabilitation, so they can go out and be a great part of society instead of rotting in jail.

Speaking of jail, go to this topic and watch the three videos (part one, two and three) -- it'll show you what jail does to both the jailed and the jailers.
It's eye-opening (if you're not an anarchist. If you're an anarchist, your eyes are already open). =p

http://anarchist-org.forum-gratuiti.net/law-and-order-f4/the-stanford-prison-experiment-t22.htm
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