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Corrbrias
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PostSubject: should we vote?   Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:01 pm

Do you think that as anarchists we should vote? I say yes, because otherwise we can only hope there will be a revolution, which isn't likely. If we vote at least we can choose between the lesser of two evils. And when we do things to advance our cause I think its better to have the lesser of two evils, so that they will do some of what we want, rather than kill us. Take the civil rights movement for example. Black people decided they would be free, so they defied segregation, and the racist whites fought back to keep up the oppression, but because they had the lesser of two evils (Lyndon Johnson) as president, he passed the civil rights act, and there wasn't de jure segregation any more.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:11 pm

i agree with you, but you also have to think about how if we dont vote, that will send out the message that we are not happy with the system in general. if 30% of americans vote, then people are bound to look at things and be like "we better take matters unto our own hands".
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:25 pm

50% of Americans don't vote. I guarantee you theres not many people thinking its because they don't like the current system. Mostly people say its because they're ill-informed, a-political, undecided, ect. Although what they are really saying is that their propaganda hasn't reached those people yet, and they need to work on that. It doesn't give them any incentive to change any government policies for the better.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:27 pm

I just argued about this for pages with Inkus not a week and a half ago.

Corrbrias wrote:
Do you think that as anarchists we should vote?

Fuck no! I think that is against essential principles of anarchy.

Quote :
I say yes, because otherwise we can only hope there will be a revolution, which isn't likely.

I think we do a little more than that, otherwise we wouldn't have a purpose, really. We also spread our propaganda, involve ourselves in strikes, marches, etc. But you're right, in the end, we just hope. We hope we were listened to. Or, we hope the government gives the people a reason to revolt. But we can't force revolution, it's just not possible. And voting does nothing to help our cause.

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If we vote at least we can choose between the lesser of two evils.

And you would legitimize that lesser evil in the process.

Quote :
And when we do things to advance our cause I think its better to have the lesser of two evils, so that they will do some of what we want, rather than kill us. Take the civil rights movement for example. Black people decided they would be free, so they defied segregation, and the racist whites fought back to keep up the oppression, but because they had the lesser of two evils (Lyndon Johnson) as president, he passed the civil rights act, and there wasn't de jure segregation any more.

I'm sure with enough pressure any other president would've done the same. And when it comes down to it, we're gonna have to fight for it, so let's not have any illusions about the bourgeoisie being on our side, or being willing to help us at all.

Why should we involve ourselves in bourgeois politics? It's almost hypocritical. I don't think we should ever take sides in bourgeois politics, because you can only support the bourgeois, and they come out on top no matter what. Also, we are supposed to oppose authority, and oppose the state and the bourgeoisie. Ane you cannot effectively oppose something you are perpetuating because you are legitimizing its existence..

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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:35 pm

Corrbrias wrote:
50% of Americans don't vote. I guarantee you theres not many people thinking its because they don't like the current system. Mostly people say its because they're ill-informed, a-political, undecided, ect. Although what they are really saying is that their propaganda hasn't reached those people yet, and they need to work on that. It doesn't give them any incentive to change any government policies for the better.

thanks for telling me that, because i want sure why americans didnt vote.

but still, we are a political movement just like Obama is a political movement (apart from being a person). you dont see obama supporting Ron Paul just because he's a lesser evil than Mccain do you?
but enough of metaphors now. we need to spread our ideas and gain support from others. we also need to educate people about how the new society will work. i believe that the more we do now, the better things will be in the future. we have to really spend a lot of time on this and think it out well. we need to truly live as anarchists.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:43 pm

I hold my position - You can vote for the lesser of the two evils -If you don't vote for the lesser of the two evils you strengthen the greater of the two evils. Vote today and riot against who you voted for tomorrow - because its 'always' preferable to revolt against the ' lesser' of the two evils.

I think Anarchist Dagger has the right principal - however my position is a pragmatic one, its not based on principal.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:56 pm

Inkus2000 wrote:
I hold my position - You can vote for the lesser of the two evils -If you don't vote for the lesser of the two evils you strengthen the greater of the two evils. Vote today and riot against who you voted for tomorrow - because its 'always' preferable to revolt against the ' lesser' of the two evils.

I think Anarchist Dagger has the right principal - however my position is a pragmatic one, its not based on principal.

i think it depends on who is on the ballot. if you have Hitler or Mousolini, you might as well not vote, but if you have Hitler on one side and Obama on the other, then you might as well vote for obama. so i guess i have to change my position a little. the key is to inform ourselves the best we can, and then make our desicion on wether to vote or not.

also think about this, if Mccain gets elected, he will fuck up the country so bad that there's bound to be a revolution.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:23 pm

god0fmusic wrote:
Inkus2000 wrote:
I hold my position - You can vote for the lesser of the two evils -If you don't vote for the lesser of the two evils you strengthen the greater of the two evils. Vote today and riot against who you voted for tomorrow - because its 'always' preferable to revolt against the ' lesser' of the two evils.

I think Anarchist Dagger has the right principal - however my position is a pragmatic one, its not based on principal.

i think it depends on who is on the ballot. if you have Hitler or Mousolini, you might as well not vote, but if you have Hitler on one side and Obama on the other, then you might as well vote for obama. so i guess i have to change my position a little. the key is to inform ourselves the best we can, and then make our desicion on wether to vote or not.

also think about this, if Mccain gets elected, he will fuck up the country so bad that there's bound to be a revolution.


Maybe you should vote for McCain then Lol
Bad economies do create a revolutionary climate however - what type of revolution is uncertain.

Personally I would try to prevent someone I know would start a war from being elected - killing other working class people is non - anarchist as far as Im concerned. I would not actively allow a war to occur in the hope that the death of people would hasten the coming revolutionary climate - capitalism will eventually create the economic conditions required for revolution.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:55 am

Inkus2000 wrote:

Maybe you should vote for McCain then Lol
Bad economies do create a revolutionary climate however - what type of revolution is uncertain.

Personally I would try to prevent someone I know would start a war from being elected - killing other working class people is non - anarchist as far as Im concerned. I would not actively allow a war to occur in the hope that the death of people would hasten the coming revolutionary climate - capitalism will eventually create the economic conditions required for revolution.

yea, thats true. i would probably vote for obama then, just because the other guy would get a lot of people killed.
but it would be better if we gathered and decided to all vote for some other left-wing party, that way it would show that a lot of people are willing to have things collectivized.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:00 pm

I'm thinking I might vote Green or something, since I think Obama will win anyway. That way it will show what way I want things to go, and your vote counts more in more local elections anyway, so I'll be voting for people who might actually be really good, in fact I know a few of them.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:11 pm

Although voting for the lesser of two evils is better than voting for the greater or not at all, I believe we should't have to vote for the lesser of two evils.

Sure, vote for the guy that's not as bad as the other one, but do not accept that this will be the way forever.

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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:29 pm

Inkus2000 wrote:
I hold my position - You can vote for the lesser of the two evils -If you don't vote for the lesser of the two evils you strengthen the greater of the two evils. Vote today and riot against who you voted for tomorrow -

That's hypocritical. And people are likely to notice that. Besides, you aren't making the greater evil stronger, you're just showing that you won't partake in, and therefore legitimize, politics between two corrupt, bourgeois organizations.

Quote :
because its 'always' preferable to revolt against the ' lesser' of the two evils.

But it's a much less revolutionary situation under the 'lesser' evil, so there's much less of a chance that revolution will occur. In fact, i'd almost guarentee you it wouldn't, ever.

Quote :
I think Anarchist Dagger has the right principal - however my position is a pragmatic one, its not based on principal.

I hardly find it practical to act in a way that directly opposes our principles. Especially when you ask others to do it as well, like the WSM did (but let's not get back into that). I think it's harmful to our credibility and public opinion.

Quote :
yea, thats true. i would probably vote for obama then, just because the other guy would get a lot of people killed.
but it would be better if we gathered and decided to all vote for some other left-wing party, that way it would show that a lot of people are willing to have things collectivized.

I believe the word is opportunism. You're using the state to defeat the state. I don't know how the inherent problem with this isn't self-evident. By using the state, you're not only giving it material roots, you're putting the idea in people's heads (or helping to put it in their heads) that the government can be good, and also that we, anarchists, also believe the government can be good, which is utterly false.

Quote :
Sure, vote for the guy that's not as bad as the other one, but do not accept that this will be the way forever.

Don't be so sure. When we're using the government, and showing people that the state can be used as a catalyst for social change, you're giving the state more of a reason to stick around, not to mention a better chance it'll stay around.

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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:30 pm

I have (slightly) changed my position on this topic -- I believe we should not vote.

Hitler or Stalin? If your candidate wins, you would have partook in the process of bringing him to power. I do not know about the rest of you, but I couldn't live with myself.

If you revolt against your candidate, you are in a sense being hypocritical and if the other candidate wins there's more chance of a revolution.

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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:48 pm

i think if we arent going to vote, we should make vids on youtube and spread em arround telling people not to vote. this was our choices will have an actual effect. we need to urge people to take matters into their own hands, and create a better society themselves instead of relying on government all the time.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:54 pm

I say vote.

If there's some sort of a change that you'd like to see in this Country, that you can't really do on your own, and you would need to vote to get it changed (i.e. getting a cleaner air bill, or something), stop fucking sitting there, whining about it, and go let your voice be heard.

I agree that Democracy is really fucking sloppy, and all that....but, at least you can say that you went there, and did it....you didn't just sit by, and complain about how fucked up this country is, without at least TRYING to make a change to it.

It's not like you have to input that you're an "Anarchist", the machine won't know what your political stance is; it doesn't matter. You're an American citizen....you might as well take advantage of what you can do in this country...it doesn't hurt you any....I don't think it makes you any less of an "Anarchist"...who gives a fuck? You shouldn't give a shit about what other people think....it should depend on what you think.

I don't know what else to write on the subject...I think I covered everything, lol.

Be well.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:38 pm

OnedayIstoppedbreathing wrote:
I say vote.

If there's some sort of a change that you'd like to see in this Country, that you can't really do on your own, and you would need to vote to get it changed (i.e. getting a cleaner air bill, or something), stop fucking sitting there, whining about it, and go let your voice be heard.

I agree that Democracy is really fucking sloppy, and all that....but, at least you can say that you went there, and did it....you didn't just sit by, and complain about how fucked up this country is, without at least TRYING to make a change to it.

It's not like you have to input that you're an "Anarchist", the machine won't know what your political stance is; it doesn't matter. You're an American citizen....you might as well take advantage of what you can do in this country...it doesn't hurt you any....I don't think it makes you any less of an "Anarchist"...who gives a fuck? You shouldn't give a shit about what other people think....it should depend on what you think.

I don't know what else to write on the subject...I think I covered everything, lol.

Be well.

Really voting won't get you anywhere, no matter who you vote for, the candidates are like cards that get shuffled here and there, some with different flavors but all with the same hidden agenda. There's other ways to create change rather than voting such as joining collectives, organizations like Food not Bombs, organizations that help rehabilitate prisoners and abolish the prison industrial complex or community based programs.

What makes you think we are complaining? This is just a discussion, we aren't complaining if thats what you are getting out of it. Because we don't live near each other (and I wish we did) we have this site to discuss issues and ideas. Like Comrade Dagger said it is really hypocritical to vote or be part of that process cause of our principles. Why be part of something that exploits, kills, screws over its people and other countries for domination and profit. Once you read about the system you'll know what the system is all about. Its not what someone thinks, its about our principles as anarchists.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:39 pm

InsurgenteCujo wrote:
OnedayIstoppedbreathing wrote:
I say vote.

If there's some sort of a change that you'd like to see in this Country, that you can't really do on your own, and you would need to vote to get it changed (i.e. getting a cleaner air bill, or something), stop fucking sitting there, whining about it, and go let your voice be heard.

I agree that Democracy is really fucking sloppy, and all that....but, at least you can say that you went there, and did it....you didn't just sit by, and complain about how fucked up this country is, without at least TRYING to make a change to it.

It's not like you have to input that you're an "Anarchist", the machine won't know what your political stance is; it doesn't matter. You're an American citizen....you might as well take advantage of what you can do in this country...it doesn't hurt you any....I don't think it makes you any less of an "Anarchist"...who gives a fuck? You shouldn't give a shit about what other people think....it should depend on what you think.

I don't know what else to write on the subject...I think I covered everything, lol.

Be well.

Really voting won't get you anywhere, no matter who you vote for, the candidates are like cards that get shuffled here and there, some with different flavors but all with the same hidden agenda. There's other ways to create change rather than voting such as joining collectives, organizations like Food not Bombs, organizations that help rehabilitate prisoners and abolish the prison industrial complex or community based programs.

What makes you think we are complaining? This is just a discussion, we aren't complaining if thats what you are getting out of it. Because we don't live near each other (and I wish we did) we have this site to discuss issues and ideas. Like Comrade Dagger said it is really hypocritical to vote or be part of that process cause of our principles. Why be part of something that exploits, kills, screws over its people and other countries for domination and profit. Once you read about the system you'll know what the system is all about. Its not what someone thinks, its about our principles as anarchists.

True.

You made really good points. Sorry, I got a little heated...I just...I don't know. I DON'T think you guys are complaining...I'm still trying to make sense out this all...I'm lost, lol.

I still believe in voting, though. Not just in our current Government; but, in any regard. I think a Democracy is a good thing...just the current system is really shitty. I believe that it could really work, if given that the right people are in charge. I don't know if my vote actually counts; I hope it does, but at least I can say that I TRIED....with the best way that I personally know how. I don't really believe in a Presidential-type figure or anything like that...but, people collectively voting for Nation-wide change....which I think could totally happen in an Anarchist society.

Around the area where I live, I don't know if any of those types of Organisations exist, otherwise, I'd be a part of them. There are some in Tampa, St Pete, Miami...hell, maybe even Orlando...but, I'm sure nothing of that sort goes on around here. This town is just FULL of God-loving, pro-life, Conservative-Republican's.

Who knows....maybe I'm just not looking hard enough, or in the right places.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:38 pm

OnedayIstoppedbreathing wrote:
I say vote.

If there's some sort of a change that you'd like to see in this Country, that you can't really do on your own, and you would need to vote to get it changed (i.e. getting a cleaner air bill, or something), stop fucking sitting there, whining about it, and go let your voice be heard.

I agree that Democracy is really fucking sloppy, and all that....but, at least you can say that you went there, and did it....you didn't just sit by, and complain about how fucked up this country is, without at least TRYING to make a change to it.

It's not like you have to input that you're an "Anarchist", the machine won't know what your political stance is; it doesn't matter. You're an American citizen....you might as well take advantage of what you can do in this country...it doesn't hurt you any....I don't think it makes you any less of an "Anarchist"...who gives a fuck? You shouldn't give a shit about what other people think....it should depend on what you think.

I don't know what else to write on the subject...I think I covered everything, lol.

Be well.

Did you like Mike Gravel? He was a left wing (for the US) Libertarian.

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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:55 pm

KenCat wrote:
OnedayIstoppedbreathing wrote:
I say vote.

If there's some sort of a change that you'd like to see in this Country, that you can't really do on your own, and you would need to vote to get it changed (i.e. getting a cleaner air bill, or something), stop fucking sitting there, whining about it, and go let your voice be heard.

I agree that Democracy is really fucking sloppy, and all that....but, at least you can say that you went there, and did it....you didn't just sit by, and complain about how fucked up this country is, without at least TRYING to make a change to it.

It's not like you have to input that you're an "Anarchist", the machine won't know what your political stance is; it doesn't matter. You're an American citizen....you might as well take advantage of what you can do in this country...it doesn't hurt you any....I don't think it makes you any less of an "Anarchist"...who gives a fuck? You shouldn't give a shit about what other people think....it should depend on what you think.

I don't know what else to write on the subject...I think I covered everything, lol.

Be well.

Did you like Mike Gravel? He was a left wing (for the US) Libertarian.

Yes, I do, actually.

Why do you ask?
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:11 pm

I used to love him to death. He looks up to Chomsky, you know. =p
What confuses me now is that he's a capitalist.

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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:18 pm

KenCat wrote:
I used to love him to death. He looks up to Chomsky, you know. =p
What confuses me now is that he's a capitalist.

Different strokes, for different folks.

Capitalism sucks, yes....but, he still stands for alot of good.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:23 pm

OnedayIstoppedbreathing wrote:
KenCat wrote:
I used to love him to death. He looks up to Chomsky, you know. =p
What confuses me now is that he's a capitalist.

Different strokes, for different folks.

Capitalism sucks, yes....but, he still stands for alot of good.

Agreed.

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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:35 pm

OnedayIstoppedbreathing wrote:
I still believe in voting, though. Not just in our current Government; but, in any regard. I think a Democracy is a good thing...just the current system is really shitty.

Here's the one thing that urks me about democracy. It is still used for repression. But instead of a majority being repressed under a dictatorship, it is one or more minorities being repressed. It's the same practice, but it's justified because it's the majority doing it (basically, you must submit because we can take you guys). If it's a system of free association, then democratic methods can be used, because if you don't like what's being done, you are free to refuse to take part.

Quote :
I believe that it could really work, if given that the right people are in charge.

So i take it you aren't of the persuasion that people are a product of their environment? Because a regime changing hands is still a regime to me. Different people, same old shit.

Quote :
I don't know if my vote actually counts; I hope it does, but at least I can say that I TRIED....with the best way that I personally know how. I don't really believe in a Presidential-type figure or anything like that...

but, people collectively voting for Nation-wide change....which I think could totally happen in an Anarchist society.

That would basically be how anarchism would work, but it would be on a much smaller scale since societies would be run by the people within them, and not by some quack in a big white house that thinks he can run things sufficiently from the top. But i think once anarchism is established, there won't really be need of big reforms and changes, since things would be as equal as possible. And if it gets to the point in which production matches or exceeds consumption, i think people will be content with the way things are run.

Quote :
Around the area where I live, I don't know if any of those types of Organisations exist, otherwise, I'd be a part of them. There are some in Tampa, St Pete, Miami...hell, maybe even Orlando...but, I'm sure nothing of that sort goes on around here. This town is just FULL of God-loving, pro-life, Conservative-Republican's.

Who knows....maybe I'm just not looking hard enough, or in the right places.

Where do you live? Cos there's a food not bombs branch in orlando. And there are anarchist organizations still growing in miami, palm beach, and fort lauderdale.

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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:48 pm

I live in Winter Haven...not TOO far from Orlando.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:16 pm

Anarchist.Dagger wrote:
OnedayIstoppedbreathing wrote:
I still believe in voting, though. Not just in our current Government; but, in any regard. I think a Democracy is a good thing...just the current system is really shitty.

Here's the one thing that urks me about democracy. It is still used for repression. But instead of a majority being repressed under a dictatorship, it is one or more minorities being repressed. It's the same practice, but it's justified because it's the majority doing it (basically, you must submit because we can take you guys). If it's a system of free association, then democratic methods can be used, because if you don't like what's being done, you are free to refuse to take part.

This is why I don't believe in voting. I used to believe in coming to consensus and now I believe in understanding the feel of the people. This is what we do at my meeting and it was inspired by Anarchism.

I'm a Unitarian Universalism Quaker; the meeting house I attend was founded by a bunch of old Anarchist Atheists in the 60's.

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