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god0fmusic
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:08 pm

OnedayIstoppedbreathing wrote:

I still believe in voting, though. Not just in our current Government; but, in any regard. I think a Democracy is a good thing...just the current system is really shitty. I believe that it could really work, if given that the right people are in charge. I don't know if my vote actually counts; I hope it does, but at least I can say that I TRIED....with the best way that I personally know how. I don't really believe in a Presidential-type figure or anything like that...but, people collectively voting for Nation-wide change....which I think could totally happen in an Anarchist society.

it is no coincidence that the people in charge aren't the right people.

i believe in voting when it is needed, but it is best to spread our ideas and act on our own. after all, the republicans vote for the republican party, and i think the anarchists should "vote" for the anarchist groups.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:20 pm

I was thinking it might make sence to vote for the party you hate most - hastening the revolutionary climate by heightening class tension - provided you don't have any moral hangups about it. If you don't vote you change nothing - if you vote left you ease class tension by slightly improving the condition of the working class, if you vote right you increase the intensity of social unrest. The problem is that if you do vote right you cant be certain that social unrest will manifest itself in any meaningful way - the far right grows parallel to the far left.

So in retrospect - yea prob best to play it safe and not vote

As for this notion of legitimizing capitalism through democracy - I don't think democracy Is required whatsoever for people to feel as if the system is legit all they need is to be subjected to is hours of corporate propaganda, most people don't vote and I guarantee you that most of them have no problem with capitalism - they just don't see much difference between the two main parties. Likewise a large portion of the population who do vote probably feel pretty disillusioned with capitalism. The main political parties could care less about how many people vote for them so long as they win the election, in any case capitalism continues to exist.

Like Iv said before I think capitalism needs to fall first - the state is an empty shell without capital.[/quote]


Last edited by Inkus2000 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:32 pm

Quote :
Here's the one thing that urks me about democracy. It is still used for repression. But instead of a majority being repressed under a dictatorship, it is one or more minorities being repressed. It's the same practice, but it's justified because it's the majority doing it (basically, you must submit because we can take you guys). If it's a system of free association, then democratic methods can be used, because if you don't like what's being done, you are free to refuse to take part.

I think de-centralized direct democracy is fine so long as absolute indavidual autonomy acts as an essential pre-requisite. I think that collective decision with regards to public issues is the fairest process available - the only alternative is minority rule.Its funny that the cappies defend minority rule on the basis that some small messure of inequality might exist in the democratic decision making process LOL - As if two decisions can be implemented at once, of course one needs to be chosen, and the fairest method is democratic decision by all involved.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:15 pm

Inkus2000 wrote:
I was thinking it might make sence to vote for the party you hate most - hastening the revolutionary climate by heightening class tension - provided you don't have any moral hangups about it. If you don't vote you change nothing - if you vote left you ease class tension by slightly improving the condition of the working class, if you vote right you increase the intensity of social unrest. The problem is that if you do vote right you cant be certain that social unrest will manifest itself in any meaningful way - the far right grows parallel to the far left.

So in retrospect - yea prob best to play it safe and not vote

As for this notion of legitimizing capitalism through democracy - I don't think democracy Is required whatsoever for people to feel as if the system is legit all they need is to be subjected to is hours of corporate propaganda, most people don't vote and I guarantee you that most of them have no problem with capitalism - they just don't see much difference between the two main parties. Likewise a large portion of the population who do vote probably feel pretty disillusioned with capitalism. The main political parties could care less about how many people vote for them so long as they win the election, in any case capitalism continues to exist.

Like Iv said before I think capitalism needs to fall first - the state is an empty shell without capital.
[/quote]

I was discussing this in my political philosophy class.. I found out there is one more Anarchist in my class. hahah

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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:51 pm

At first I said if I could I wouldn't vote but now I'm moving more towards voting even if the elite still decide who gets chosen or not Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:02 pm

Street_Smart wrote:
At first I said if I could I wouldn't vote but now I'm moving more towards voting even if the elite still decide who gets chosen or not Shocked

Same, but now I'm back to not voting for sure. I believe in liberty, freedom, justice and peace. The politicians, no matter what they say, are naturally against that. You know how I know this? They run for office, ie seek power over all of us...

That, my friend, is not not liberty.

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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:12 pm

KenCat wrote:
Street_Smart wrote:
At first I said if I could I wouldn't vote but now I'm moving more towards voting even if the elite still decide who gets chosen or not Shocked

Same, but now I'm back to not voting for sure. I believe in liberty, freedom, justice and peace. The politicians, no matter what they say, are naturally against that. You know how I know this? They run for office, ie seek power over all of us...

That, my friend, is not not liberty.
The funny thing is their suppose to represent us THE PEOPLE but all I see them doing is stuffing their pockets at our expense....
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:38 pm

Street_Smart wrote:
KenCat wrote:
Street_Smart wrote:
At first I said if I could I wouldn't vote but now I'm moving more towards voting even if the elite still decide who gets chosen or not Shocked

Same, but now I'm back to not voting for sure. I believe in liberty, freedom, justice and peace. The politicians, no matter what they say, are naturally against that. You know how I know this? They run for office, ie seek power over all of us...

That, my friend, is not not liberty.
The funny thing is their suppose to represent us THE PEOPLE but all I see them doing is stuffing their pockets at our expense....

Hey.. They're not that single minded.. They also stuff their rich friend's pockets at our expenses.

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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:37 pm

Yes
We should vote
/end
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:05 pm

Rename wrote:
Yes
We should vote
/end

Back up your argument...
I backed up mine by saying I do not want to 'vote' for someone to gain actual power over myself and others. Once you vote them in, you're at their complete mercy.
Look at what happened with Bush, he stood as a peaceful, traditional republican (semi-libertarian) and after he was elected, he turned into a warmongering neoconservative who created laws to suppress the people.

And don't say that Democrats are even better... Bill Clinton went to wars too, he just kept them secret. Same with JFK, the political "saint".

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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:58 pm

KenCat wrote:
Rename wrote:
Yes
We should vote
/end

Back up your argument...
I backed up mine by saying I do not want to 'vote' for someone to gain actual power over myself and others. Once you vote them in, you're at their complete mercy.
Look at what happened with Bush, he stood as a peaceful, traditional republican (semi-libertarian) and after he was elected, he turned into a warmongering neoconservative who created laws to suppress the people.

And don't say that Democrats are even better... Bill Clinton went to wars too, he just kept them secret. Same with JFK, the political "saint".
THE RIGHT-LEFT ILLUSION
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:45 pm

KenCat wrote:
Back up your argument...
I backed up mine by saying I do not want to 'vote' for someone to gain actual power over myself and others. Once you vote them in, you're at their complete mercy.
Look at what happened with Bush, he stood as a peaceful, traditional republican (semi-libertarian) and after he was elected, he turned into a warmongering neoconservative who created laws to suppress the people.

And don't say that Democrats are even better... Bill Clinton went to wars too, he just kept them secret. Same with JFK, the political "saint".

Simple really, i beileve we should vote for someone to gain power over us. By not voting your not doing anything, by voting your picking who leads. Better than monarchy or communism were you don't really have a choice.
And i won't say that about democrats Smile
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:52 am

ya its kind of iffy since our votes really don't matter the elite in the end choose but we tried santa
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:53 pm

Rename wrote:
KenCat wrote:
Back up your argument...
I backed up mine by saying I do not want to 'vote' for someone to gain actual power over myself and others. Once you vote them in, you're at their complete mercy.
Look at what happened with Bush, he stood as a peaceful, traditional republican (semi-libertarian) and after he was elected, he turned into a warmongering neoconservative who created laws to suppress the people.

And don't say that Democrats are even better... Bill Clinton went to wars too, he just kept them secret. Same with JFK, the political "saint".

Simple really, i beileve we should vote for someone to gain power over us. By not voting your not doing anything, by voting your picking who leads. Better than monarchy or communism were you don't really have a choice.
And i won't say that about democrats Smile

Well thats fine for you but it doesn't matter who you pick for they all have the same esoteric agenda.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:22 pm

Rename wrote:

Simple really, i beileve we should vote for someone to gain power over us. By not voting your not doing anything, by voting your picking who leads. Better than monarchy or communism were you don't really have a choice.
And i won't say that about democrats Smile

in communism there isn't a choice cause there is no leader, in socialism, there is a choice =D but that's me and my foolish attempt at trying to fit these concepts in simplified ways...

and no, the point is not to simply forgo voting, its to do other things to solve your problems instead of investing your power in a "representative" who doesn't really represent you anyway..

direct action is an amazing thing =D
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:56 pm

@ InsurgenteCujo
I guess somewhat, but many of the idiots we vote for do have different ideas.

@ SolPac
I always switch communism and socialism, than they get mad at me Razz
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:36 pm

solpacvoicis wrote:
Rename wrote:

Simple really, i beileve we should vote for someone to gain power over us. By not voting your not doing anything, by voting your picking who leads. Better than monarchy or communism were you don't really have a choice.
And i won't say that about democrats Smile

in communism there isn't a choice cause there is no leader, in socialism, there is a choice =D but that's me and my foolish attempt at trying to fit these concepts in simplified ways...
Is it true there hasn't ever been a true communist society?

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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:48 am

Killuminati wrote:
Is it true there hasn't ever been a true communist society?

Nope.
True communist society refers to a utopia and thankfully i highly doubt a utopia is possible.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:54 pm

Rename wrote:
KenCat wrote:
Back up your argument...
I backed up mine by saying I do not want to 'vote' for someone to gain actual power over myself and others. Once you vote them in, you're at their complete mercy.
Look at what happened with Bush, he stood as a peaceful, traditional republican (semi-libertarian) and after he was elected, he turned into a warmongering neoconservative who created laws to suppress the people.

And don't say that Democrats are even better... Bill Clinton went to wars too, he just kept them secret. Same with JFK, the political "saint".

Simple really, i beileve we should vote for someone to gain power over us. By not voting your not doing anything, by voting your picking who leads. Better than monarchy or communism were you don't really have a choice.
And i won't say that about democrats Smile
I never said not to vote and then sit home doing nothing. Don't vote and then use DIRECT ACTION.
Voting or sending petitions never worked for our independence, it didn't work in the Civil War, it didn't work in Russia, it didn't work for civil rights, etc.





Killuminati wrote:
solpacvoicis wrote:
Rename wrote:

Simple really, i beileve we should vote for someone to gain power over us. By not voting your not doing anything, by voting your picking who leads. Better than monarchy or communism were you don't really have a choice.
And i won't say that about democrats Smile

in communism there isn't a choice cause there is no leader, in socialism, there is a choice =D but that's me and my foolish attempt at trying to fit these concepts in simplified ways...
Is it true there hasn't ever been a true communist society?
This is true. A communist society is one without a class devision. So in communist Russia, there WAS a devision -- the devision was between the people (who were generally equal amongst themselves) and the government.

In an Anarcho Communist society, there is not government so we will truly be equal.

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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:10 pm

KenCat wrote:
I never said not to vote and then sit home doing nothing. Don't vote and then use DIRECT ACTION.
Voting or sending petitions never worked for our independence, it didn't work in the Civil War, it didn't work in Russia, it didn't work for civil rights, etc.

Reformist direct action IS voting, voting for the reformists we put in. When we get enough we turn the white house into disorder and than peacefully kill them all...err.. peacefully switch governments

Sometimes direct action is nessecary, sometimes not, such as civil rights worked using direct action, yet in russia their direct action just made things worse.
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:42 pm

I like direct action alot, ya I do vote for people that would help us get in

Cynthia McKinney was running for president I was estatic she's not Anarchist or nothing but her views are more socialist at least... but of course the media acts like she's some kind of extremist and she didn't get many votes -> Still tried though

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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:02 pm

Killuminati wrote:
I like direct action alot, ya I do vote for people that would help us get in

Cynthia McKinney was running for president I was estatic she's not Anarchist or nothing but her views are more socialist at least... but of course the media acts like she's some kind of extremist and she didn't get many votes -> Still tried though

Agreed, I have been a fan of her for a while. I would vote for someone with good ideals even if they would not get voted in. In fact, I would vote for someone with good ideas especially if they were not going to get voted in. It gets the ideas more mainstream and then Anarchism doesn't look like a maniac's philosophy.

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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:58 pm

err, hard to answer...

i guess its best to say that there have been examples of communistic societies (but those are the same examples of anarchist societies - its cause communists and anarchists have the same goal, essentially, but they want to do it by different means...)

BUT there has never been COMMUNISM, and all the "communist nations" that you have been taught about is bull (communism is a "stateless, classless society"....stateless...with nations? yeah i don't think so)

i think that about sums it up

sorry, there was an error on my computer and i couldn't post this lol
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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:07 pm

solpacvoicis wrote:
err, hard to answer...

i guess its best to say that there have been examples of communistic societies (but those are the same examples of anarchist societies - its cause communists and anarchists have the same goal, essentially, but they want to do it by different means...)

BUT there has never been COMMUNISM, and all the "communist nations" that you have been taught about is bull (communism is a "stateless, classless society"....stateless...with nations? yeah i don't think so)

i think that about sums it up

sorry, there was an error on my computer and i couldn't post this lol

Agreed. One could argue that certain tribes could be considered truly "communist".
One is shown within the first three minutes of Jonathan (mr1001nights)'s documentary.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7907557023790126070&hl=en

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PostSubject: Re: should we vote?   Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:43 pm

should we vote? first off the people don't have the choice of the president the electoral college decides. second off i believe our government has control over the whole show anyways and that the president is the puppet to give the people what they want very simple and smart if you think of it.
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